KlimaDAO Forum

ollumi This is your vision, not the market's decision. If you see robust initial enthusiasm for your framework, then experience a sudden decline in the enthusiasm, I would first look toward yourself and the products you make before blaming other market participants.

Please point me to where we blame other market participant for anything?

Also not sure what you mean about sudden decline in enthusiasm?

Hello Ollumi, I'm really sorry that you feel this way, and I apologize for you experiencing a lack of responsiveness in our Discord.
We hear and understand you, and we are working on making things right, so we can move forward together. We are all humans here aiming to solve the biggest challenge of our species, which should provide enough common ground to work out our differences in a way that satisfies all parties.

We would like to invite you on a call with members of the Toucan core, so we can have a fruitful conversation around the points you brought up. Please message me (ela @ Toucan | GMT+2) on Discord (DMs are open, otherwise please ping me on the Toucan Discord), so I can coordinate a time that works for you and the Toucan core.

Thank you!

After reading through the comments it seems to me that the biggest concern about this proposal is that KlimaDAO’s treasury would have to buy back what it had already paid for.

I think it’s worth to take a closer look:
Would KlimaDAO really have to start buying back the same assets (NCT and LP tokens) that were “taken out” of its treasury if NCT bonds would be introduced?

My understanding is quite the contrary. Klima will be able to sell bonds in return for NCT and LP tokens only to users who either sourced these NCTs via bridging or they bought them on SushiSwap after the NCT liquidity pool was launched and none of these assets were previously in Klima’s treasury (except the NCT that was redeemed by non-Toucan entities, over which nobody has power anyway neither now or in the future). The NCTs that were “taken out” from the Klima treasury changed their shape into the form of LP tokens – so to avoid misreference it only makes sense to refer to them as such hereafter - and Toucan have absolutely zero intention to bond any NCT-USDC LP tokens from the mass-rebalancing action.
Also, it’s both very dangerous and quite ridiculous would be to think that if a user who bought his NCT from the - currently still Toucan owned - NCT-USDC pool, isn’t acknowledged as his legitimate property, and thinking it belongs to Klima. It would make the meme turn reality in which Bugs Bunny says: “Our carbon.” Image of the meme: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/846431959042621480/912120960906317864/Klima_Meme_1.png
This would also break the fungibility of NCT. I think there is no need to explain further why this narrative would crush the on-chain carbon market.
On the other hand what should we say to those who may want to bridge new NCT and bond them ASAP to the treasury?

Not enableing NCT bonds would both delay the inflow of carbon assets from the traditional market to the on-chain which would delay global carbon price increase, and it would prevent users to play the beneficial 1,1 strategy, delaying the increase of Klima’s runway. Btw, I think if Klima is offering to sell a bond, it is only doing so under such conditions that is beneficial to them, so Klima would lose potential revenue.

If we are delaying the launch of NCT bonds, we are essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I ask everyone to reconsider this proposal and don’t see and point to Toucan as the single identifiable blameable actor. One can only do that because Toucan had to do the rebalancing operation themselves. By supporting NCT bonds, you are not doing Toucan a favor. You are doing it for the benefit of Klima, the emeriging On-Chain Carbon Market and mainly for the health of the Planet with all the living beings in it.

ollumi If you have read and understood the conversations I've taken pains and my own valuable time to engage in good faith with your team on your server and on these forums and still do not understand why I feel that way, I think this proves my last point in my previous post.

Sorry what point exactly?

ollumi or been slightly less of a command & control operator compared to the route you chose and retroactively imposed selective redemption fees on nature-based credits in the BCT pool that would account for any projected price gap and announce the reason why,

This was a work in progress, but we didn't have time to implement this. We also are of the opinion that any changes to the BCT smart contract would have to be run by KlimaDAO first.

ollumi or selectively reached out to those who have been redeeming from your protocol with a bounty that represents a sure haul compared to the uncertainty of whether you would launch an NCT pool at all or whether the NCT pool liquidity could absorb their theoretical arbitrage maximum, or any number of other, non-self serving steps.

Unfortunately there's not email address attached to wallet addresses that we can reach out to... and we don't know who was redeeming. We couldn't do a public shout out for all the reasons previously mentioned.

ollumi But most importantly, I don't have to offer any of these alternatives to criticize what you did do: to paraphrase a certain comedian - I don't have to be a pilot to see a helicopter stuck up a tree and think that fellow screwed up.

Yes this is true. It is easy to make baseless accusations and attack my and Toucan's reputation from behind your anon profile. If you feel like removing your mask and prove that you don't have a secret interest in dragging our name through the dirt, and that we don't actually know each other, then please come to our office hours next week.

You have a personal invitation from me, even if you aren't a pilot,.

I will vote no. Klima is too dependent on Toucan already and there are some serious issues raised by the community about Toucan's behavior. Before addressing these issues it's a no.

ollumi I won't bother listing others where members of your team try to label other startups in the space as fragmenting your "one standard" and doing harm, people do see for themselves.

At toucan we do think that a single carbon standard is important.

First there was Verra VCUs. Now we're going to have have how many derivative tokens based on Verra VCUs, this further fractures and fragments an already fragmented market. This is totally unnecessary, and we have always been open to collaborating on a common standard to prevent this from happening.

Many bridges to a commons standard is vital if we're to make any improvement on what exists.

Thanks you for dragging this conversation through every amazingly shit thing you can think of to say about Toucan, and away from the actual topic of this thread... you're a true pro

I voted yes because I'm greedy and I want all of the carbon credits and liquidity pairs. I also have a feeling or a hope that MOSS would sell us their LP tokens in the future. (Anyone know more about that possibility, by chance?) Also, I don't feel like $5mm is that much money. It would be nice if Toucan reached out a $5mm olive branch, but that bitflip isn't gonna make me not want NCTs in the treasury.

Disclaimer: I feel like I only have a surface-level understanding of this whole situation. If anyone smarter than me who disagrees with me would be willing to hop on a call in service of my education, lmk.

Dionysus Agree with Dionysus here. Waiting for resolution and clarity on the NCT fund allocation...

James

Neither you nor I nor the Toucan team determines what is "priced" into BCT and what is not, the market does, based on the information available to it,

James

My point was clear, and I would otherwise gently steer you towards reading on information and markets, as well as what is long term equilibrium vs short term equilibrium, but I'm beginning to form an opinion your response was formed in bad faith, not lack of clarity or understanding, because:

James

What information exactly the functioning of the pools has been consistent since they were launched, anyone could have redeemed from them at any time.

Let's make this crystal clear. In the AMA following the uncovering of Toucan's operation, the Toucan team explicitly claimed it could not work with Klima's policy team to "rescue" the nature-based offsets in the BCT pool in question because @Brian33 and the policy team at Klima insisted such a move would require a KIP proposal vote followed by a snapshot vote in the interest of transparency.

or, from your own blog post:

We were not able to share that this mass balancing activity was being performed with the Toucan community before it was completed. By publicizing that this value remained available to anyone, the arbitrageurs we were defending against would have been tipped off. Revealing this free value in the dark forest would have resulted in the rescue being front-run

This is precisely how markets react to information, though either purposefully or inadvertently, Toucan decides to leave out the fact that both sellers and buyers would receive the new information, so value attribution wouldn't solely go toward arbitragers.

Yet at the same time, Toucan continues to insist that the information on how to selective redeem had been out in the open all along. Here's the thing: You can't have it both ways - if you are worried that release information would create a rush to hoard NCT offsets in the BCT pool, then you are admitting access to that information was gated, whether by technical, physical, or other barriers. If you insist on the information was open and otherwise un-hurdled the entire time, then allowing the policy team to publish a KIP would have no material effect. As for the release of information of Toucan's interest in a nature-based pool, this was something your team had done long before the behind-the-curtains operation.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim a "dark forest" where information would spur immediate reaction, and that the information was out there all along.

James

I'm just wondering if there's a bit of self-awareness with anyone on the team at this point?

Starting with the "rescue operation", with the exception of a few notable members of your team, every response in discord and forums I've heard coming out has been prefaced with "me me me", "I had no money so I had no choice", "this is what we think is best for ReFi", "this is our vision and you should be going along with it/are damaging the earth for not going along with it." Even the more polished mea culpa response from the blog post prefaces with qualifiers such as "the perception" that we did something wrong, etc. It is astonishingly tone-deaf and an own goal that no one forced you into. No one is trying to force you into a public caning, but you need to demonstrate at least a basic understanding of why certain stakeholders are unhappy with you to instill any confidence that you can redress lapses in the decision-making process that led to this outcome going forward. In your responses here, you have not.

ela

I would prefer to engage on open forums rather than closed because I've been engaged in way more bad faith engagements during my career, where the value to one party is the signal to the outside world rather than genuine dialogue, than I care to recall. That said, my goal here is not to embarrass or delegitimize anyone or any party, and I do believe in the value of engagement over opposition. I'd be happy to ping you via discord.

James The main issue I see people having is a language barrier and the meeting of challenges to exchange snide remarks. Actually, not so much a language barrier I guess as it is just a poor concept of the assumption that the situation is clear to everyone. Misunderstandings of intention and assumption driven bias without clarity is big factor here. People tend to see things through blood red tinted glasses when in retrospect while having a certain narrative set. It also seems like a battlefield where one group is trying to have the higher ground because they perceive the past as a point where they were taken advantage of and now see the proposition as an offer to step on them again. In order to get past this it's going to take a bit of people on both sides walking in the shoes of their opposite. Some understanding and empathy. Not a spin on a deal of who is more important and who is trying to kick the other when they're down. Some times the hardest thing to do is to level with people and understand their point of view, but almost every time it is the single action that can begin mending even mortal wounds, none the less the superficial wounds. Compromise is difficult, but not as difficult as understanding what people aren't understanding and then showing them kindness while taking a new approach at leveling with them. It's only that difficult because some times the other party won't take the time to do it themselves, but regardless, don't let the words and actions of others define who you are going to be and how you are going to act. I say this because it is obvious that you are frustrated and I want you to know that it is alright to feel grief in the situation, but don't stoop just because someone is taking kicks at your ankles pal. <3